The make or break question....

[Johnno]

Hey guys,

Joined here a few months ago, pondered about at different cars, test drove a cayman S, Few m3's etc then decided to 100% put my evo up for sale.

CSL's have always made my head turn, being a regular at the ring I've seen my fair share.

The make or break question for me is, why a csl and why not a 5 year newer V8 M3.

There's obviously pro's and con's for both, the biggest pro for the v8 is its newer, dct box is faster? Pros for csl, rare, will hold value better?

I'm guessing the biggest one is depreciating, v8's can be had for around 20k now.

My evo is going tommorow hopefully, taken a deposit so all well ill be in the market for a new car. Anyone around South Wales fancy showing me what a csl can do?

(Thinking of trying to view this this weekend if I can) - http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=460316

[Mike R]

Hey guys,

Joined here a few months ago, pondered about at different cars, test drove a cayman S, Few m3's etc then decided to 100% put my evo up for sale.

CSL's have always made my head turn, being a regular at the ring I've seen my fair share.

The make or break question for me is, why a csl and why not a 5 year newer V8 M3.

There's obviously pro's and con's for both, the biggest pro for the v8 is its newer, dct box is faster? Pros for csl, rare, will hold value better?

I'm guessing the biggest one is depreciating, v8's can be had for around 20k now.

My evo is going tommorow hopefully, taken a deposit so all well ill be in the market for a new car. Anyone around South Wales fancy showing me what a csl can do?

(Thinking of trying to view this this weekend if I can) - http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=460316

The E92 is 1680kg and only 420PS, the CSL is 1400kg and 360PS, so the power to weight is almost identical, so the newer car doesn't feel any faster. However, the V8 feels big and heavy by comparison when throwing it around (as you would expect at that weight) and like most M cars the brakes start to wilt when pressed on track (again down to the weight).

This is shown perfectly by the fact that a factory CSL is faster around the 'ring than a factory E92 V8.

However, if you're a 'ring regular, you can turn the E92 into a proper weapon, if you're prepared to gut it it lose the OEM creature comforts. And you can do this for the cost of a good CSL as well :smokin:.

This car went for £17.5k :119: :
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141032472318?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

So stripped, APs, Nitrons, Recaro race seats, 18s and it can be a 1450kg weapon (if you can live with the stripped interior). The Schirmer cars with these mods (and a few other bits - a Drexler diff, aero, oil coolers and Akraprovic exhaust) do 7.22 full laps of the 'ring :notworthy:.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/Ring%20photos/null_zpscb47015d.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/MikeR/media/Ring%20photos/null_zpscb47015d.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/Ring%20photos/null_zpseba4de39.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/MikeR/media/Ring%20photos/null_zpseba4de39.jpg.html)

However, as standard, they are just a bit of a bus (weighing not shy of the old E39 M5). We're fortunate enough to have both the CSL and an E90 V8. I can't remember the last time I used the V8 though, as it is just too ordinary, where the CSL is a proper event.

[Steve B]

£490 to tax it a year puts me off...!!!!, especially as my car sits in the garage all the time gathering dust.


Steve

[Mike R]

Regarding the car you're going to see, PM "lawsy", as no doubt he has seen it in the flesh and can give you any unbiased information you might need, as it is owned by one of the guys that tunes his Evo (he has posted details of the car on here on the owner's behalf as well) :).

[Johnno]

I know of Ross, who's selling that particular csl bought many parts off him for my evo.

My last ring trip (may) I saw the two black team cars, and they were mega. And that's why I'm debating which one.

If I buy a csl, with suspension / brake upgrades, it will hold better value. Than if I were to get a v8 m3 and chop it all up, spending alot more on it?

Mpg wise what are you guys getting? Anyone using these as a daily drive?

[Pooky]

Where is the proof of a Schirmer car on road legal tyres doing a 7.22?

[glendog74]

CSL MPG:

Mixed driving average: 23-25 mpg

Motorway/long distance: >31-32 mpg

Track driving: around 10-12 mpg (track dependant)

[Mike R]

Where is the proof of a Schirmer car on road legal tyres doing a 7.22?

Here is his 7.19 BTG lap on a TF day - the 7.22 full lap is what I was told by the owner of the above white car, and that the black car has now also got down to a 7:05 BTG....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA_7l8lLbAQ

[Mike R]

I know of Ross, who's selling that particular csl bought many parts off him for my evo.

My last ring trip (may) I saw the two black team cars, and they were mega. And that's why I'm debating which one.

If I buy a csl, with suspension / brake upgrades, it will hold better value. Than if I were to get a v8 m3 and chop it all up, spending alot more on it?

Mpg wise what are you guys getting? Anyone using these as a daily drive?

A good CSL is only going to go up, a V8 is only going to go down (they just built too many). So if the decision is purely based on residuals, then it has to be the CSL. However, if you're going to be using it everyday (which it will do with ease), you'd be better off buying a high mileage CSL, as you'd only (sadly) devalue a low mileage car by putting loads of (mundane) miles on it.

Values tend to be as follows and mileage does seem to play an important part (these are all assuming VGC and full history), obviously lower mileage, but less cared for cars will be worth less and higher mileage exceptionally cared for cars will be worth more than this guide:
<10k miles = £50k+
10k - 15k = £50-£45k
15k - 20k = £45-40k
20k - 30k = £40-35k
40k - 50k = £35-30k
50k - 70k = £30-25k
70k - 100k = £25-20k

[E46CSL]

A good CSL is only going to go up, a V8 is only going to go down (they just built too many). So if the decision is purely based on residuals, then it has to be the CSL. However, if you're going to be using it everyday (which it will do with ease), you'd be better off buying a high mileage CSL, as you'd only (sadly) devalue a low mileage car by putting loads of (mundane) miles on it.

Values tend to be as follows and mileage does seem to play an important part (these are all assuming VGC and full history), obviously lower mileage, but less cared for cars will be worth less and higher mileage exceptionally cared for cars will be worth more than this guide:
<10k miles = £50k+
10k - 15k = £50-£45k
15k - 20k = £45-40k
20k - 30k = £40-35k
40k - 50k = £35-30k
50k - 70k = £30-25k
70k - 100k = £25-20k



& 30 to 40K? :)

[LeinsCSL]

You need to drive one and all will be clear, simple as that really. Decision will then be made for you!


£490 to tax it a year puts me off...!!!!, especially as my car sits in the garage all the time gathering dust.


Steve

No talk of all your cheap tax rates over there please! ;)

[Johnno]

A good CSL is only going to go up, a V8 is only going to go down (they just built too many). So if the decision is purely based on residuals, then it has to be the CSL. However, if you're going to be using it everyday (which it will do with ease), you'd be better off buying a high mileage CSL, as you'd only (sadly) devalue a low mileage car by putting loads of (mundane) miles on it.

Values tend to be as follows and mileage does seem to play an important part (these are all assuming VGC and full history), obviously lower mileage, but less cared for cars will be worth less and higher mileage exceptionally cared for cars will be worth more than this guide:
<10k miles = £50k+
10k - 15k = £50-£45k
15k - 20k = £45-40k
20k - 30k = £40-35k
40k - 50k = £35-30k
50k - 70k = £30-25k
70k - 100k = £25-20k


When I say every day driving, it won't be 100's of miles a year, 1 or 2 ring trips a year and I drive about 7 times a month to work ( in a lift share) so it's not mega miles.

So the other question is,

Do I buy a e46 m3, for around 8-10k, and pocket 15k. I'm just trying to find out what makes the csl so good. Never been or properly looked at one, apart from track side !

John.

[Johnno]

You need to drive one and all will be clear, simple as that really. Decision will then be made for you!




No talk of all your cheap tax rates over there please! ;)

Yeah that's what I'm thinking, drove a V8 version the other day in Cardiff bmw (2009 dct etc) was up for 29k, it felt a utter train on the motorway, but other than that. Wasn't the most exciting.

[Johnno]

I currently drive a 2007 Mini Cooper s as a daily driver, and a 400 bhp Evo 9. But want something more sophisticated for a fast track car and a daily driver. The Evo is really good at hitting corners etc but I get annoyed driving it any distance slowly.

[alexk]

Here is his 7.19 BTG lap on a TF day - the 7.22 full lap is what I was told by the owner of the above white car, and that the black car has now also got down to a 7:05 BTG....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA_7l8lLbAQ

Mike how much money he 'invested' in his car ?
Also... this sounds faster than a 997 GT2 RS :whistle:

[Johnno]

Mike how much money he 'invested' in his car ?
Also... this sounds faster than a 997 GT2 RS :whistle:

Mega money, in the flesh it's stunning. I had a good look around it when I was at rent for ring last.

[alexk]

Mega money, in the flesh it's stunning. I had a good look around it when I was at rent for ring last.


From youtube ->

A BTG lap during GranTurismo trackday 30.4.2013
Car: BMW M3 E92 Schirmer V8 GT
Engine: Standard with Akrapovic exhaust (431 HP on Dyno)
Tires: New Dunlop Direzza 03G (265/35x18 - 285/30x18)
Suspension: Nitron with Schirmer kinematics and setup
Car weight: abt.1600kg with driver
The car has unbelievable handling and balance
"It is all about the handling - not horsepower"

So 431HP and 1600kg is faster than 1320kg and 620HP which happens to be Porsche's best car...
Makes you wonder :whistle:

[Johnno]

From youtube ->

A BTG lap during GranTurismo trackday 30.4.2013
Car: BMW M3 E92 Schirmer V8 GT
Engine: Standard with Akrapovic exhaust (431 HP on Dyno)
Tires: New Dunlop Direzza 03G (265/35x18 - 285/30x18)
Suspension: Nitron with Schirmer kinematics and setup
Car weight: abt.1600kg with driver
The car has unbelievable handling and balance
"It is all about the handling - not horsepower"

So 431HP and 1600kg is faster than 1320kg and 620HP which happens to be Porsche's best car...
Makes you wonder :whistle:

The way the thing corners is insane. On the other hand. The rs 4.0 looks in the similar bracket.

They were leaving gt2 / 3's all week.

Didn't handle like a 1600kg car.

[m3ni]

Hey guys,

Joined here a few months ago, pondered about at different cars, test drove a cayman S, Few m3's etc then decided to 100% put my evo up for sale.

CSL's have always made my head turn, being a regular at the ring I've seen my fair share.

The make or break question for me is, why a csl and why not a 5 year newer V8 M3.

There's obviously pro's and con's for both, the biggest pro for the v8 is its newer, dct box is faster? Pros for csl, rare, will hold value better?

I'm guessing the biggest one is depreciating, v8's can be had for around 20k now.

My evo is going tommorow hopefully, taken a deposit so all well ill be in the market for a new car. Anyone around South Wales fancy showing me what a csl can do?

(Thinking of trying to view this this weekend if I can) - http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=460316

I am based over the water in Somerset if you fancy looking over one and guess what it's also for sale :wink:

[Trawler]

[QUOTE=LeinsCSL;152148]You need to drive one and all will be clear, simple as that really. Decision will then be made for you!

+1

[Mike R]

From youtube ->

A BTG lap during GranTurismo trackday 30.4.2013
Car: BMW M3 E92 Schirmer V8 GT
Engine: Standard with Akrapovic exhaust (431 HP on Dyno)
Tires: New Dunlop Direzza 03G (265/35x18 - 285/30x18)
Suspension: Nitron with Schirmer kinematics and setup
Car weight: abt.1600kg with driver
The car has unbelievable handling and balance
"It is all about the handling - not horsepower"

So 431HP and 1600kg is faster than 1320kg and 620HP which happens to be Porsche's best car...
Makes you wonder :whistle:

I think that they're being pessimistic about the weight, as the owner of the white car says it was 1450kg without driver. However, I have seen pictures of the German owner, and he is a big lad, so I'd guess at 1570, hence rounding up.

Don't forget EVERY car has to have a driver in it ;).

Look at the cars it is faster than at last year's Tuner Grand Prix:
http://www.carunch.com/2012-auto-tuner-grand-prix-event-at-hockenheimring-top-tuned-cars-results/

[_Nathan_]

From youtube ->

A BTG lap during GranTurismo trackday 30.4.2013
Car: BMW M3 E92 Schirmer V8 GT
Engine: Standard with Akrapovic exhaust (431 HP on Dyno)
Tires: New Dunlop Direzza 03G (265/35x18 - 285/30x18)
Suspension: Nitron with Schirmer kinematics and setup
Car weight: abt.1600kg with driver
The car has unbelievable handling and balance
"It is all about the handling - not horsepower"

So 431HP and 1600kg is faster than 1320kg and 620HP which happens to be Porsche's best car...
Makes you wonder :whistle:

1320 with driver?

[alexk]

1320 with driver?

No I believe the 997 GT2 RS is 1320kg without the driver.
So let's say 1400kg with the driver.

[Mike R]

No I believe the 997 GT2 RS is 1320kg without the driver.
So let's say 1400kg with the driver.

Look how much faster the HEAVIER 991 GT3 (DCT) is than the more powerful 997 GT3 RS 4.0 (manual) - the Schirmer cars are DCT ;). It's not JUST about power to weight, just think how many seconds a lap a DCT car is able to shave off a manual shifter (part of the reason the CSL punches above it's power to weight Can be attributed to the shift speed of the SMG car compared to a manual ;) ).

[_Nathan_]

Surprised it is that light, non RS is 1440 without driver I think?

Road cars are all shit on track anyway in the big scheme of things so just get the one that makes you smile the most! :beer:

[shane@mbtech]

Surprised it is that light, non RS is 1440 without driver I think?

Road cars are all shit on track anyway in the big scheme of things so just get the one that makes you smile the most! :beer:

:thumbs:

Very true.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

To do 7.05 BTG [19.1km] your average
speed is over 100 mph per hour
ie ] over a 161 Kmh

To put that into perspective it means that
that at ''Spa'' faster Circuit, you would be able to do
a Lap time of 2.36 !!!!!!!

Not sure who is smoking what.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[gav]

The black dauxx e92 is very nice. Looks the purpose as well. Seen it at schirmers a few times when having a few things sorted.
Very sorted on the ring.

Would very much like one (schirmer one, not a standard one)

[shane@mbtech]

Hi,

To do 7.05 BTG [19.1km] your average
speed is over 100 mph per hour
ie ] over a 161 Kmh

To put that into perspective it means that
that at ''Spa'' faster Circuit, you would be able to do
a Lap time of 2.36 !!!!!!!

Not sure who is smoking what.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

You cannot compare ring average speeds to spa average speeds. Bit naive to even compare really.

f1 average speed ranges from 163.5kph to 262.2kph on the slowest to fastest circuit.

[cslsuperfan]

E92 M3 DCT with EDC an absolute must...gearbox is sublime.....however that's about it

Wont repeat the wise words of other well informed peeps but having owned both the E92 M3 and the mighty csl i'm afraid the V8 just doesn't cut it against BMW's finest.

The CSL is an event every time you go out.....the final straw was my wife saying she liked driving the V8 in auto!!
she wont go within 100 yards of the CSL....says it's scary!

What more can I say;)

[shane@mbtech]

E92 M3 DCT with EDC an absolute must...gearbox is sublime.....however that's about it

Wont repeat the wise words of other well informed peeps but having owned both the E92 M3 and the mighty csl i'm afraid the V8 just doesn't cut it against BMW's finest.

The CSL is an event every time you go out.....the final straw was my wife saying she liked driving the V8 in auto!!
she wont go within 100 yards of the CSL....says it's scary!

What more can I say;)

She loves getting in mine? :smt058

[Graham]

The Schirmer V8 M3's are something else....but Schirmer seems pretty handy himself, I wonder if he's ever played with a CSL?

[Bounce]

She loves getting in mine? :smt058:hahaha::hahaha:

[_Nathan_]

The Schirmer V8 M3's are something else....but Schirmer seems pretty handy himself, I wonder if he's ever played with a CSL?

Loads of them.

As a road car the e92 is miles ahead of a CSL if you just want to get somewhere, I've done 21k miles in 17 months in my e90 and I would swap it for a CSL for maybe 10-20% of those miles.

As your only road car if you have to drive a lot the e9x makes a compelling argument for itself, as a toy or if you only every drive on B roads or for fun then the csl is the way to go.

Or just get both ;)

[Mike R]

Hi,

To do 7.05 BTG [19.1km] your average
speed is over 100 mph per hour
ie ] over a 161 Kmh

To put that into perspective it means that
that at ''Spa'' faster Circuit, you would be able to do
a Lap time of 2.36 !!!!!!!

Not sure who is smoking what.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

APMSLOL :bigcry:

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote-

''You cannot compare ring average speeds to spa average speeds. Bit naive to even compare really.

Lawsy- totally disagree.

To do the ''Alleged'' 7.05 BTG on the ring then you
have to avg over 100 mph.

Ring is slower than Spa, for several reasons
as proven over the years.

So if you can do 7.05 at the ring [slower circuit] then doing
2.36 at Spa in the same Car, [Shrim Car]
should be a walk in the park.

Those Cars will not get close to 2.36 at Spa even if
on slicks so how they do an alleged 7.05 at the
Ring will have to remain what it is 'talk].

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

As regards the Shrim Cars being and
alleged 1450 Kgs then the Guy who
did 7.05 BTG must have been on the
scales that day.

E9X M3 DCT car is approx 35KG heavier than
the Manual [DCT Box is 25kgs hevier alone].

So to go from an approx 1685 kgs to an alleged 1450
kgs, by removing the Inetrior, seats, sound deadning,
roof lining etc, glass, nets around 145 Kgs.

I guess the other 90kgs is to be found with the
7.05 BTG video.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Mike R]

Hi,

Quote-

''You cannot compare ring average speeds to spa average speeds. Bit naive to even compare really.

Lawsy- totally disagree.

To do the ''Alleged'' 7.05 BTG on the ring then you
have to avg over 100 mph.

Ring is slower than Spa, for several reasons
as proven over the years.

So if you can do 7.05 at the ring [slower circuit] then doing
2.36 at Spa in the same Car, [Shrim Car]
should be a walk in the park.

Those Cars will not get close to 2.36 at Spa even if
on slicks so how they do an alleged 7.05 at the
Ring will have to remain what it is 'talk].

Regards,

The Gorilla.

I disagree - the 'ring is a very flowing circuit and you spend the majority of your time well North of 100mph (which makes up for the few forays below this on the slower corners). In the dry, there is not one corner that is below 3rd gear (in the CSL).

I have a lap of 7.37 BTG on camera that I'm waiting for my mate to upload that was achieved just mucking around in his Westfield - I was in shorts (it was 30°C) had never driven it around the 'ring before, so was basically doing a sight-seeing lap. I know that pushing the car harder would easily see a very low 7 min. Now I can assure you I'm no track driving God and I only have around 500 laps under my belt, so it should be easily possible for a 'ring veteran to achieve these times in a well sorted car (over a clear lap).

Schirmer prepared GTS doing the full VLN circuit in 9.13 and the North Loop track in 7:28 (all officially verified).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxlRTsnughI

The GTS is 444bhp (450PS) and the Schirmer cars are 431, but "allegedly" 94kg lighter (as they stripped even more) than a GTS. So being 6 seconds faster than the GTS on the same wheel, tyre, aero package (the Schirmer cars have slightly better front end aero than the GTS) isn't unbelievable IMO. Look at the time difference for the CSL compared to the normal M3 - the only difference is the Cups, 110kg and 17bhp, yet I don't see you challenging the time of 7.50 as opposed to 8.22 - a full 32 seconds different with the same driver.

[DazBlackCSL]

:hahaha:She loves getting in mine? :smt058

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote - ''I disagree - the 'ring is a very flowing circuit...... ''

MikeR- you can disagree all you like but
the Stopwatch does not lie or better
still, make any assumptions [remember the assumptions].

Spa is faster than the Ring, that's not according
to the Primate, that's according to the stopwatch.

The retoric is that Shrim Car would be faster on the
slower circuit than the faster circuit.

So could be a podium at Mondello but only with the
also rans at Silverstone.

Is this what they call revearse engineering ?

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[_Nathan_]

How fast can a CSL lap spa as standard? 2:54? Not with me driving for sure but theoretically with a pro driver?

[Mike R]

Hi,

Quote - ''I disagree - the 'ring is a very flowing circuit...... ''

MikeR- you can disagree all you like but
the Stopwatch does not lie or better
still, make any assumptions [remember the assumptions].

Spa is faster than the Ring, that's not according
to the Primate, that's according to the stopwatch.

The retoric is that Shrim Car would be faster on the
slower circuit than the faster circuit.

So could be a podium at Mondello but only with the
also rans at Silverstone.

Is this what they call revearse engineering ?

Regards,

The Gorilla.


I love the way you chose to ignore all the empirical evidence based on just what you believe to be true :bigcry: :blalalala: !

[_Nathan_]

Just for info.

Assuming a CSL will do a 2:54 lap of Spa at 7km (maybe too fast in fairness) and a 7:50 lap of the ring at 22km, average speeds would be 144 km/h for Spa and 168km/h for the ring so in this example the 'ring is miles faster?

[Mike R]

How fast can a CSL lap spa as standard? 2:54? Not with me driving for sure but theoretically with a pro driver?

Here is Shim's 2.49.3 (not standard - Intrax, APs, Supersprint and 265/35 18s all round) :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdErvQVs6Ss&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[_Nathan_]

Not very but I think my 2:54 is ballpark right.

[Mike R]

Just for info.

Assuming a CSL will do a 2:54 lap of Spa at 7km (maybe too fast in fairness) and a 7:50 lap of the ring at 22km, average speeds would be 144 km/h for Spa and 168km/h for the ring so in this example the 'ring is miles faster?

Don't let the facts get in the way :blalalala: ;).

[shane@mbtech]

Not very but I think my 2:54 is ballpark right.

There or there abouts Nathan

I'm sure Sy did a 2.53/2.54 with standard suspension.

A Nissan Gtr in standard form can do a 2.45 lap of spa. And a ring time of roughly 7.22

Edited to add the ring time is a pro, spa time is a couple of guys I know.

[Mike R]

There or there abouts Nathan

I'm sure Sy did a 2.53/2.54 with standard suspension.

A Nissan Gtr in standard form can do a 2.45 lap of spa. And a ring time of roughly 7.22

Edited to add the ring time is a pro, spa time is a couple of guys I know.

Which gives an average speed of 95mph and 106mph respectively - quite some difference. Goes to show that comparing Spa with the 'ring is like comparing apples with oranges :whistle: :119: !

Even allowing for different driver talents, the Spa time would need to be 2.27 in the GTR to give the same average speed as the 7.22 at the 'ring.....

[shane@mbtech]

Hi,

Quote - ''I disagree - the 'ring is a very flowing circuit...... ''

MikeR- you can disagree all you like but
the Stopwatch does not lie or better
still, make any assumptions [remember the assumptions].

Spa is faster than the Ring, that's not according
to the Primate, that's according to the stopwatch.

The retoric is that Shrim Car would be faster on the
slower circuit than the faster circuit.

So could be a podium at Mondello but only with the
also rans at Silverstone.

Is this what they call revearse engineering ?

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Spa is faster than the ring on the stop watch because its under 3 mins:thumbs:

[shane@mbtech]

Which gives an average speed of 95mph and 106mph respectively - quite some difference. Goes to show that comparing Spa with the 'ring is like comparing apples with oranges :whistle: :119: !

Even allowing for different driver talents, the Spa time would need to be 2.27 in the GTR to give the same average speed as the 7.22 at the 'ring.....

And we both know that will NOT happen

[Mike R]

And we both know that will NOT happen

Only in the world of Primates ;).

[Graham]

How can you compare Spa and Ring....really you can't. They are entirely different circuits.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote - ''How can you compare Spa and Ring....really you can't. They are entirely different circuits.

I was not comparing as such just stating the obvious that
Spa is Quicker than the Ring.

Bellof's epic Lap of 6.11 secs is around the GP Track
equates to 202 kmh / 126 mph

At Spa even this year with the
new regs several were under 1.48 and quicker
which is 233 kmh / 144 mph .

Also at this years Spa GP several cars were at 73 %
WOT per lap which would be impossible at the
Ring.


Quote- ''MikeR- you can disagree all you like but
the Stopwatch does not lie or better
still, make any assumptions [remember the assumptions].

Spa is faster than the Ring, that's not according
to the Primate, that's according to the stopwatch.''


No its Not ''' emperial evidence'' just plain certified facts.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[shimmy]

im def quicker at Spa than the Ring :thumbs:

[mattCSLnut]

im def quicker at Spa than the Ring :thumbs:
:hahaha: ... definitely :smt023

[shimmy]

How can you compare Spa and Ring....really you can't. They are entirely different circuits.

Whilst I know what you are thinking, they are entirely different circuits, there are far more similarities between Spa and The Ring than The Ring and Silverstone, Bedford, Cadwell, Outlon Park, etc etc.

From my records Spa, Silverstone and Monza are the only circuits I have done where lap times are sub 40 secs per mile and I don't think you can equate Silverstone or Monza to the Ring.

The Ring is different due to the amount of blind corners and the danger factor but if you were going to compare it to a 'circuit', Spa would be one of them, and probably the A507 to Buntingford the other :thumbs:

[mattCSLnut]

Whilst I know what you are thinking, they are entirely different circuits, there are far more similarities between Spa and The Ring than The Ring and Silverstone, Bedford, Cadwell, Outlon Park, etc etc.

The Ring is different due to the amount of blind corners and the danger factor but if you were going to compare it to a 'circuit', Spa would be one of them, and probably the A507 to Buntingford the other :thumbs:

Ring & Spa are definitely more similar then they are entirely different :smokin: They also have very similar weather patterns and their very own micro climates :bigcry:
Yes Spa is shorter and more aggressive but less flowey then the Ring but they are both very fast, both have many sweeping sections with plenty of undulations :119: elevations.
Regardless of different opinions, they are both EPIC :supz: :supz: :supz:

[Mike R]

Gorilla,
I do not understand why you are quoting lap times at Spa achieved by cars that do not run at the 'ring, so no comparison can be made.

For direct comparison to see which circuit is faster, you need to compare like for like IDENTICAL cars.

A GTR does 7.22 around the 'ring - FACT. To just MATCH this average speed around Spa, it would need to be able to do a 2.27 - FACT. Come and rub it in my face when you find a factory GTR capable of doing this, let alone going faster.

Comparing anything other than like for like cars at each circuit is just plain silly and stating that cars from the 80s are "similar" to current LMP cars is just nonsensical.

[O'Neill]

If you compare VLN fastest lap in Manthey GT3 (24.3km 8:03) to Manthey GT3 Spa lap time (7km 2:21) there isn't much difference in average speed.

[_Nathan_]

"The" Manthey GT3 - there a quite a few and quite a few different specifications...

Also note the VLN lap includes part of the GP circuit which alters things somewhat.

[Mike R]

If you compare VLN fastest lap in Manthey GT3 (24.3km 8:03) to Manthey GT3 Spa lap time (7km 2:21) there isn't much difference in average speed.

The Sport Auto lap time for cars (where the CSL and GTR achieved 7.50 and 7.22 respectively) is only over 20.6km of the circuit (compared to the full lap of 20.832km).

The combined circuit for VLN races is 25.947km and I thought that the lap record for that was still held by Uwe Alzen at 8:18 in 2012 in the BMW Z4 GTE car?

I'm not sure what circuit combination is used to achieve 24.3km, but what-ever it is, it isn't the normal Sport Auto 20.6k ;).

[O'Neill]

OK lets do another, btg, 19.1km 7:43 CSL driven by Peter (Scandinavian on Northloop) PBox files to prove.

Spa 7km 2:49 (Shimmy, some bloke on here) average speed nearly same again.

Ring full circuit average speed is faster as it has a long flat out straight.

[billyboysm3]

OK lets do another, btg, 19.1km 7:43 CSL driven by Peter (Scandinavian on Northloop) PBox files to prove.

Spa 7km 2:49 (Shimmy, some bloke on here) average speed nearly same again.

Ring full circuit average speed is faster as it has a long flat out straight.

Put a leash on her Turkish,before she gets bitten! And you don't want to get bitten now, do you sweetheart!

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote- ''Gorilla,
I do not understand why you are quoting lap times at Spa achieved by cars that do not run at the 'ring, so no comparison can be made.''


There you go again with those assumptions.

I stated that Spa was quicker than the Ring and was
proven by the stopwatch, you disagreed.

Now your trying to add another diemension by ''assuming''
F1 Cars do not run at the Ring, when any car can test
or run at the Ring, F1 cars included.

F1 cars have run the Ring last recorded was the
BMW with Heidfield.

Spa is still faster.

BMW's PR Stunt at the Ring backfired big time with
Heidfield driving, so much, that it was turned into a
''Photo Shoot''.
Even on ''Best calculations'' he got nowhere near
the Belloff time.

A modern F1 Car will not get anywhere near the
Bellof Time at the Ring.

Read the article and maybe you will understand
why no F1 car is ever going to be faster around the
Ring than Spa.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/bmw-f1-car-hits-ring

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Mike R]

Being a regular at the 'ring, I completely understand why an F1 car won't be "quick"* around there - the same reason F1 cars struggle up the hill at Goodward (you only have to watch the Mclaren record breaking run to see how unsuitable the car is on that surface), and Nick very candid in his comments that the car could go much faster, if it wasn't for the surface condition of the track, which meant he had to back out of the throttle where on a smooth surface it would be pinned.

*As in to it's full potential, if the circuit was "suitable" for these cars.

I was of the belief that we were originally discussing road registered cars, all of which put in faster average speeds at the 'ring than they do at Spa, where your original argument was used to attempt to debunk the lap times that the Schirmer cars were putting in at the 'ring, because it was your belief that these cars should be putting in faster average speed times at Spa compared to the 'ring, when it was vice-versa from the evidence and times achieved by these actual cars.

So far all I have seen is evidence of road car lap times for the 'ring giving faster average speeds than their times at Spa, which does not support your theory of it being the other way round.

[Mike R]

OK lets do another, btg, 19.1km 7:43 CSL driven by Peter (Scandinavian on Northloop) PBox files to prove.

Spa 7km 2:49 (Shimmy, some bloke on here) average speed nearly same again.

Ring full circuit average speed is faster as it has a long flat out straight.

Unfortunately you're comparing two different cars (I believe Shimmy's car is on 18s for track use) along with two different driver skill levels.

You can only get a true indication with the same car and driver with equal circuit knowledge of each track.

Even if they're nigh on identical, it doesn't support the Primate's argument that Spa is the faster circuit.

[O'Neill]

Too many variables as you and Nathan have stated.

I'm in agreement that ring average speed is higher.

[DuncanR]

Too many variables as you and Nathan have stated.

I'm in agreement that ring average speed is higher.My average speed between the Ring and Spa ..is even higher !:hahaha:

As a footnote, based on past info and facts, I wouldn't recommend anyone on here to try and do better than 7:40 in a non seriously tricked out CSL, even with AP's, and Intrax, cage etc. at our level, that IS a very quick lap for a TF day.

[shimmy]

Unfortunately you're comparing two different cars (I believe Shimmy's car is on 18s for track use) along with two different driver skill levels.

You can only get a true indication with the same car and driver with equal circuit knowledge of each track.

Even if they're nigh on identical, it doesn't support the Primate's argument that Spa is the faster circuit.


IS Peter better than me then :bigcry:

[northernjim]

Where is the proof of a Schirmer car on road legal tyres doing a 7.22?


It was on slicks when he did that time.....


- the 7.22 full lap is what I was told by the owner of the above white car, and that the black car has now also got down to a 7:05 BTG....



A 7:22 full lap would have a btg lap of around 7min... Or do you mean that BARRY from eastenders has done 7:05 on a tourist day?




Car weight: abt.1600kg with driver
The car has unbelievable handling and balance
"It is all about the handling - not horsepower"

So 431HP and 1600kg is faster than 1320kg and 620HP which happens to be Porsche's best car...
Makes you wonder :whistle:


Comparing the wrong thing Alex- 1600 kg on the road, versus 1320 kg plus driver,fuel (and fluids probably)

plus the weight balance of the M3 has got to make it so much easier to drive than the gt2 don't you think?? The gt2rs does the ring in 7:18 apparently, what layout - 20.8km or 20.6km I don't know?



There are too many unknowns for us to conclusively say anything apart from the fact that........ \/ \/

IS Peter better than me then :bigcry:


:goodman:

[O'Neill]

IS Peter better than me then :bigcry:

Theoretically no as his average speed is slower on a supposedly faster track:smokin:

It seems though Spa and BTG average speeds for mid powered road cars are similar.

In the Honda I'm roughly the same (8:30 BTG 3:04 Spa) a couple of guys in e36 M3s (Just over 8 mins BTG 2:58-3 mins Spa) and e46 M3s (under 8 BTG 2:56 Spa)

iamanerd:-D

[northernjim]

Theoretically no as his average speed is slower on a supposedly faster track:smokin::gayfight::gayfight:

It seems though Spa and BTG average speeds for mid powered road cars are similar.

In the Honda I'm roughly the same (8:30 BTG 3:04 Spa) a couple of guys in e36 M3s (Just over 8 mins BTG 2:58-3 mins Spa) and e46 M3s (under 8 BTG 2:56 Spa)

iamanerd:-D


I'm 8:06btg and 3:04Spa!! would be nice to have done it on a dry day tho:birdman:

[O'Neill]

I'm 8:06btg and 3:04Spa!! would be nice to have done it on a dry day tho:birdman:

You should be under 3mins in the dry with the btg Spa formula:blalalala:

[glendog74]

I'm 8:06btg and 3:04Spa!! would be nice to have done it on a dry day tho:birdman:

You're not trying hard enough Jim Bob :finga:

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-popcorn.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/) http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-popcorn.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/) http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-popcorn.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/)

[northernjim]

feck that - Imagine how quick Shim is at the ring then! :thumbs::hahaha:

[O'Neill]

feck that - Imagine how quick Shim is at the ring then! :thumbs::hahaha:

:119::-D

[Mike R]

It was on slicks when he did that time.....





A 7:22 full lap would have a btg lap of around 7min... Or do you mean that Mark from eastenders has done 7:05 on a tourist day?


Not Mark, but according to him (if he is the owner of the white car), the owner of the black car has done a full lap of 7:22 and a BTG time of 7:05.





Comparing the wrong thing Alex- 1600 kg on the road, versus 1320 kg plus driver,fuel (and fluids probably)

plus the weight balance of the M3 has got to make it so much easier to drive than the gt2 don't you think?? The gt2rs does the ring in 7:18 apparently, what layout - 20.8km or 20.6km I don't know?

All the Sport Auto and industry test times are for 20.6km.

[shimmy]

feck that - Imagine how quick Shim is at the ring then! :thumbs::hahaha:

7.05. Just call me Eastenders Barry :)

[shane@mbtech]

Csl and evo are going. I might be selling Gtr too, project e92 is definitely on the horizon, so I can give real world feedback and lap times.

[shimmy]

Csl and evo are going. I might be selling Gtr too, project e92 is definitely on the horizon, so I can give real world feedback and lap times.

Rumour has it you just buy and sell cars now and don't bother driving them :)


Old age gets to us all matey :)



.

[northernjim]

Csl and evo are going. I might be selling Gtr too, project e92 is definitely on the horizon, so I can give real world feedback and lap times.


:wink:



Rumour has it you just buy and sell cars now and don't bother driving them :)


Old age gets to us all matey :)



.



He is looking fooking old as well nowadays:119:




.

[Bounce]

:wink:







He is looking fooking old as well nowadays:119:




.:hahaha::hahaha: