CSL Mileage...

[csl9000000]

Am hoping to push the button soon on my 3rd CSL.

Provided they have been maintained well is 70,000 miles something I should worry about or are they fine beyond this.

Anyone have any experiences?

Thanks

[rstoughy]

Currently sitting on 73k.
I would not worry providing it has history.
I've had to replace the head gasket @ 71k but thats really about it.

[martin770]

Mine is at 66k now, the head gasket was done at 63k, But mine is running great.

[glendog74]

Mine is 78k now.

HG replaced around 70k.

Car fine since.

[cslsuperfan]

70K absolutely fine but SH a must.
Mine's on 60K awaiting HG failure!!

[Bounce]

81k FBMWSH and pulling like train.:smokin:

[sjb]

65k and head gasket being done right now but that should really be the only serious mileage related issue I gather.....

[Yanto]

73k

Leak down test before Munich...

Tighter than a..........:supz:

[mattCSLnut]

89K with FBMWSH :thumbs: Still running on original engine with original HG :smokin:
Engine oil & filter changed every 4K miles ... or at least once a year.
Gareth did a compression & leak down test last year and it was bang on speck & tight as. :supz:

[Straightsix]

Why do the head gaskets go ? How do they fail ?
On regular M3s is this usually a problem above 100k miles or 50k miles ?

Presumably M3 CSLs are seeing this at 60k miles plus because they have been driven very hard on track ?

[DuncanR]

Mines on 85000
Head gasket changed at 89000 :hahaha:

[Monkey]

Why do the head gaskets go ? How do they fail ?
On regular M3s is this usually a problem above 100k miles or 50k miles ?

Presumably M3 CSLs are seeing this at 60k miles plus because they have been driven very hard on track ?

I'll post up a photo of a failed S54 headgasket I have at work tomorrow.

[Big Jim]

I'm on the lookout for a lo wish mileage CSL at the moment and this gasket problem is a worry. Is it something that's been cured on later examples?

I've also seen reference to floor problems. Does this indicate abuse/track day cars?

[Jon8710]

jim
dont worry about the sub frame problems, most have been fixed now and if they havent dont buy it, mine has had a relatively easy life with no track action and it still cracked its not if its when !
regards to head gasgit how long is a peice of string ?
if you are buying get one with full warrenty you would be mad not to as a small trip to the garage could be more than a year of payments !
saying that mine has been nothing but a pleasure to own, forget milage go with history and the way the car ia presented.
you will know if its a stinker !!!
i allways look at scuffs on the rear seats dont know why but if they are all scuffed up i think its a shed.

[Straightsix]

I'll post up a photo of a failed S54 headgasket I have at work tomorrow.

Thanks

I remember the old BMW M20 6 cylinder engines were notorious for head gaskets

Stuart Draper's M3 I thought did 170k on the original engine needing NO head gasket work well from what I read in Total BMW's E46 M3 buying guide in 2012 :-)

[Straightsix]

Mines on 85000
Head gasket changed at 89000 :hahaha:

So how does that work ?

[billyboysm3]

89K with FBMWSH :thumbs: Still running on original engine with original HG :smokin:
Engine oil & filter changed every 4K miles ... or at least once a year.
Gareth did a compression & leak down test last year and it was bang on speck & tight as. :supz:

Good going!!

[Mike R]

So how does that work ?

He's Mystic Meg ;).

[mattCSLnut]

Good going!!
Hmmmm.... my HG must be living on borrowed time :bigcry:
Even Garteh was somewhat surprised :119: despite knowing my Cecil well :thumbs:

[spoonz]

A subframe repair costs £1000, a head gasket few hundred? Not unreasonable "running costs" for a £60k car.

Not deal breakers as far as I am concerned, just something to factor in and be aware of.

Some standard M3's are running well into 160k+ miles when serviced well so I don't see why a CSL wouldn't.

[Jon8710]

dropped my CSL of today for the sub frame repair, they need the car for 1 month with a man working on it the whole time !

trust me if you get it done properly it is more than £1000

try more like £5000 and as for head gasgit it may be £200 from barrys motors down the road but i wouldnt trust any one apart from G- DOG to sort mine out

one word

warrenty !

[Monkey]

dropped my CSL of today for the sub frame repair, they need the car for 1 month with a man working on it the whole time !

trust me if you get it done properly it is more than £1000

try more like £5000 and as for head gasgit it may be £200 from barrys motors down the road but i wouldnt trust any one apart from G- DOG to sort mine out

one word

warrenty !

Jon you are right in that to replace the whole rear boot floor is approx £4500, rather than £1000. However these boot floor repairs are a decent compromise for cars that are outside of manufacturers warranty, as a fair few E46 M3's now are. Only time will tell if the repair is substantial enough;)

I think it's fair to say the same with regards to the BMW replacement floors as well, yes they are slightly different and have the resin filling but only time will tell if its right or not. They didn't get it right the first time round!

Again with head gaskets, if you have a BMW warranty (which I have said on many occasions is definately worth the money) then great. However to pay retail price for a head gasket repair at a main dealer is going to be considerable. For CSL's you can maybe justify it against the value of the car, but a 2002 M3?! Dont think so. As long as you have an experienced technician at a reputable garage with the special tools for the Vanos timing its a fairly straight forward repair. Time consuming though, approx 1.5 days from drive in to drive out.

Straightsix - yes Stuart's car has done 170k, this includes numerous track days:) We felt the engine had lost its performance a little, we had some S54 bottom end spares kicking around so we rebuilt it during the quieter winter months. As you rightly say there were no issues with the head gasket.

Sorry been up to my nuts in it today (funnily enough doing a boot floor repair) I'll post the head gasket photo tomorrow for sure.

[rstoughy]

A subframe repair costs £1000, a head gasket few hundred? Not unreasonable "running costs" for a £60k car.

Not deal breakers as far as I am concerned, just something to factor in and be aware of.

Some standard M3's are running well into 160k+ miles when serviced well so I don't see why a CSL wouldn't.

Head Gasket replacement at the dealer will take the best part of 2.5K from you if you do not have warranty.

[Rick H]

After much thought, I'm going to go without the warranty. £167/month or roughly £2,000 a year is a lot for named component/£250 ex. The car has had HG, Vanos (both Elms) and sub/flr recently and is on 5k limited annual mileage, 6 months use - so I figure chucking the £167 at my offset mortgage instead of BMW coffers. This gives me a few quid interest saving and if i need to "claim", i have a pot to claim from. If the claim is a biggy greater than the accrued pot, i can overdraw with sub-3% interest until the £167s catch up again.

£2,000 a year is a lot to shell out - except if there's £2,001 worth of claims of course. It's a gamble either way I guess.

It doesn't feel comfortable though!!!!!!!

[0836whimper]

Jon you are right in that to replace the whole rear boot floor is approx £4500, rather than £1000.

The warranty claim to BMW on my sub-frame repair was over 7K :shock: :shock:

Crazy that BMW are honoring these on cars worth less than that, would have been an an insurance right-off ages ago.

But we definitely aren't complaining :smokin:

[spoonz]

After much thought, I'm going to go without the warranty. £167/month or roughly £2,000 a year is a lot for named component/£250 ex. The car has had HG, Vanos (both Elms) and sub/flr recently and is on 5k limited annual mileage, 6 months use - so I figure chucking the £167 at my offset mortgage instead of BMW coffers. This gives me a few quid interest saving and if i need to "claim", i have a pot to claim from. If the claim is a biggy greater than the accrued pot, i can overdraw with sub-3% interest until the £167s catch up again.

£2,000 a year is a lot to shell out - except if there's £2,001 worth of claims of course. It's a gamble either way I guess.

It doesn't feel comfortable though!!!!!!!

If you know a good specialist, it's about managing your own risk. Some of the numbers thrown about in relation to dealer prices are mad. We all know very reputable and capable specialists can perform the work at fractions of the prices. It's a BMW 3-series, not a Veyron.

Do your homework, know the car, do the sums and assess your own risk. Self insurance isn't a bad thing. Only you know your own circumstances.

[Steve B]

If you know a good specialist, it's about managing your own risk. Some of the numbers thrown about in relation to dealer prices are mad. We all know very reputable and capable specialists can perform the work at fractions of the prices. It's a BMW 3-series, not a Veyron.

Do your homework, know the car, do the sums and assess your own risk. Self insurance isn't a bad thing. Only you know your own circumstances.


Well said....:thumbs::thumbs:


I have 2 places I can take mine 1 of which is a 1 man band who was a previous long term CSL owner who sold his to start his own business repairing M cars and alike.


Steve

[pinkpanther008]

The warranty claim to BMW on my sub-frame repair was over 7K :shock: :shock:

Crazy that BMW are honoring these on cars worth less than that, would have been an an insurance right-off ages ago.

But we definitely aren't complaining :smokin:

I guess they are honouring these repairs as cheaper alternative to litigation, when somebody gets killed in an accident caused by this major structural fault?? Puts the hairs up on the back of the neck thinking about it:(

[JezP]

61k only hassle so far diff needed sorting around 54k small crack found in subframe by bmw 2 months before its 10 yr birthday (praise the lord:smokin:)

[Rick H]

Well said....:thumbs::thumbs:


I have 2 places I can take mine 1 of which is a 1 man band who was a previous long term CSL owner who sold his to start his own business repairing M cars and alike.


Steve

There's no answer is there - it's pure chance which way is the best way to go.

My BMs have been looked after by the same guy for 20 years or so now without issue, he's a main BM dealer mech and he knows CSLs so that's a safety net of sorts, but there's no documentation involved.

I'm going without and stuff will be recorded on the CSLR - fingers crossed it's the right way to go.

[sjb]

Here's my take on it all. Having owned an E46 M3 beforehand I already knew of the few issues these cars suffer from. I gather the main issues are the bootlfoor/subframe issue, the HG failures and then vanos, smg pump and diff (although much less common?).
I bought my car at 63500k without a BMW warranty but with a 6 month dealer supplied one from a company called the autogroup, it's a pretty comprehensive one and covers single claims up to £2500. Three weeks before it ran out I decided to get the potential HG issue and pinking checked out at ML. Sure enough a leakdown showed 95psi on most cylinders!! a quick call to the warranty company and almost without quibble it was ok'd. So that's one of the issues sorted almost FOC. The other is the bootfloor, when I viewed my car in February I found a crack then and informed the dealer. I got £1500 off of the price for that as I already knew of the Redish Motorsport kit for this job. As a personal preference even though my car has all the requirements for the BMW goodwill work I personally don't like the idea of that much work being done and read of too many horror stories of BMW dealer cock up's and the like. Having owned and restored a few decent cars over the years I decided the strengthening kit was preferable. So out of my own pocket (although in theory paid for by the purchase price reduction) that's another of the issues sorted.
The warranty runs out soon and I won't renew it even though I can. Nowhere in the warranty covers the vanos or SMG pump anyway as they're a BMW specific part so I will put money aside although that isn't going to break the bank if I ever had to pay ML to sort it, same with a diff issue. In my case I think I would be throwing money away now taking out a BMW warranty considering the major issues have been sorted. I'm just going to keep a few quid aside in case. It might never need to be dipped into ......:-D

[sjb]

Oh and I think the headgasket picture Monkey is putting up may well be mine, and the bootfloor job he's doing at the mo is my car :-D
Driving the car home with full cylinder compression (150+) as opposed to 95psi is going to be fantastic, that should give me back a good few ponies :thumbs:

[Steve B]

My 2 main concerns are...

Head gasket and SMG pump failure, I know there's a company who can supply and fit with 12 month warranty a pump for £850 inc vat so it only leaves HG which if my car stays I might get done before it blows (cars on nearly 70k now).


Steve

[portlandgrey]

Mines on 86k now & runs like a dream.

Mileage should be secondary to history & condition.

[mattCSLnut]

Mines on 86k now & runs like a dream.

Mileage should be secondary to history & condition.

+ 1 :thumbs: Correcto Mundo

[portlandgrey]

Here's my take on it all. Having owned an E46 M3 beforehand I already knew of the few issues these cars suffer from. I gather the main issues are the bootlfoor/subframe issue, the HG failures and then vanos, smg pump and diff (although much less common?).
I bought my car at 63500k without a BMW warranty but with a 6 month dealer supplied one from a company called the autogroup, it's a pretty comprehensive one and covers single claims up to £2500. Three weeks before it ran out I decided to get the potential HG issue and pinking checked out at ML. Sure enough a leakdown showed 95psi on most cylinders!! a quick call to the warranty company and almost without quibble it was ok'd. So that's one of the issues sorted almost FOC. The other is the bootfloor, when I viewed my car in February I found a crack then and informed the dealer. I got £1500 off of the price for that as I already knew of the Redish Motorsport kit for this job. As a personal preference even though my car has all the requirements for the BMW goodwill work I personally don't like the idea of that much work being done and read of too many horror stories of BMW dealer cock up's and the like. Having owned and restored a few decent cars over the years I decided the strengthening kit was preferable. So out of my own pocket (although in theory paid for by the purchase price reduction) that's another of the issues sorted.
The warranty runs out soon and I won't renew it even though I can. Nowhere in the warranty covers the vanos or SMG pump anyway as they're a BMW specific part so I will put money aside although that isn't going to break the bank if I ever had to pay ML to sort it, same with a diff issue. In my case I think I would be throwing money away now taking out a BMW warranty considering the major issues have been sorted. I'm just going to keep a few quid aside in case. It might never need to be dipped into ......:-D

Reddish have a good reputation & reading their post on cutters, they seem like a very professional outfit.
If it was better to repair the boot floor in this manner for £1k, why would BMW go to the trouble & expense of spending £5-6k repairing them?
There has to be a reason, BMW would seek to sort the issue at the very minimum of cost to them.

[sjb]

Like I said its my opinion and decision to go this route with my car. Watching the redish youtube vid the repair is extremely professional and factory looking as will ML's im sure. Others will disagree or have their own opinion I'm sure. With such a big company as BMW maybe they have been advised by their legal bods to go above and beyond what is required for a fix. There's also more than redish doing this repair, also well respected.
I've not said anyone is crazy to go the full boot floor repair route, it just wasn't what I wanted done to my car. 5 Years odd down the line maybe we will have an idea which option was the best. Maybe both options will stand the test.

[spoonz]

..hold on I see a pattern emerging!

SMG Pump = £1000 from a specialist
Subframe Repair = £1000 from a specialist
Head Gasket = £1000 from a specialist

Everything's a grand!

So if you put £3000 under the bed for a rainy day we should all be ok :-D

[CraigMillwardCroft]

..hold on I see a pattern emerging!

SMG Pump = £1000 from a specialist
Subframe Repair = £1000 from a specialist
Head Gasket = £1000 from a specialist

Everything's a grand!

So if you put £3000 under the bed for a rainy day we should all be ok :-D
Or get BMW warranty :thumbs:

[dave wilkinson]

..hold on I see a pattern emerging!

SMG Pump = £1000 from a specialist
Subframe Repair = £1000 from a specialist
Head Gasket = £1000 from a specialist

Everything's a grand!

So if you put £3000 under the bed for a rainy day we should all be ok :-D


that's what I do. no major faults in over two years of ownership, boot floor done foc. on 70k no sighs of head gasket failure or any other faults. last m3 I had 7 years ago, I ran it from 79k upto 109k and the head gasket went at 108k. it's pot luck really and as you said the three main common problems are fixed for around or under the £1000 mark at bmw specialists.

being totally honest the csl's at around 50k upwards are just as likely to throw a tantrum as the higher mileage ones. csl's are not like nobles,tvr's, Ferrari's ect they enjoy being using and will still be going stong after 150k+, unlike the others manufactures :hahaha:

[Monkey]

Better late than never:)

Attatched is 2 photos of an S54 failed headgasket. It always fails between the cylinders, and for whatever reason its always between 1 & 2, and 5 & 6 that fail first.

Bizarely on CSL's they seem to fail between the other cylinders as well, where as standard M3's just seem to go between those end cylinders (In my experience, this may not be the case across the board).

[shane@mbtech]

Better late than never:)

Attatched is 2 photos of an S54 failed headgasket. It always fails between the cylinders, and for whatever reason its always between 1 & 2, and 5 & 6 that fail first.

Bizarely on CSL's they seem to fail between the other cylinders as well, where as standard M3's just seem to go between those end cylinders (In my experience, this may not be the case across the board).

Csl tend to see tracks more, so likely a contributory factor.

[Trawler]

For those with technical knowledge, how does not warming up the engine properly/cool down affect not only the head gasket but other parts too?

[jay2020]

For those with technical knowledge, how does not warming up the engine properly/cool down affect not only the head gasket but other parts too?



The expansion and retraction of different materials at different temperatures. This creates a situation where two different materials expand at different temps and end up rubbing against each other (very simplistic explanation) Driving the car hard when cold places even more stress on those "tight" "cold" components.

If they are both up to operating temps theyll both be at their largest and will operate as designed with correct tolerances.

[Trawler]

The expansion and retraction of different materials at different temperatures. This creates a situation where two different materials expand at different temps and end up rubbing against each other (very simplistic explanation) Driving the car hard when cold places even more stress on those "tight" "cold" components.

If they are both up to operating temps theyll both be at their largest and will operate as designed with correct tolerances.

Thanks, but what components will suffer the worst?

[Mark CSL]

Thanks, but what components will suffer the worst?


Your wallet if you don't have warranty :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[Trawler]

Your wallet if you don't have warranty :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

That's why I take extra care of my Cesil.