Back in a CSL.. or 997 GT3?

[funtime]

That is the question chaps...

As some of you will know I sold my CSL around 18 months ago now to buy my first house... missed it every day since. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I've just sold the house and wont be buying another for a good while yet so looking to put the money back into a car.

I've had a few normal M3's since, but after having the CSL they felt so compromised and didn't gel with them at all..

But, before I jump back into another CSL (if I can find a good one!!!) I want to weigh up whether it's worth trying a 997 GT3. Whilst I loved my CSL, I have a fair bit more to play with this time and before it goes back into another property I thought it would be good to try something a bit more serious...

I've looked at GT3s, GTRs, F430s Maser GT etc, but the only one I can see as being as easy to live with in terms of not being scared to leave it parked up anywhere or drive it in anger is the GT3. Plus GT3 is the only one that has servicing/running costs similar to the CSL.

Only thing that puts me off is the manual in the GT3s as I love the SMG of the CSL and find it much easier to work with on track - but I'm sure I'd get used to that and just have to learn to master heal and toe...

Any thoughts much appreciated! And in the meantime if anyone is thinking of selling up please let me know!

Thanks,
James

[terryb]

You'll find that the GT3 manual box is one of the very best ever made in any car and a real joy to use. There's also a good spread of torque so don't need to change gears all the time to be on the boil

Have you considered a 996 GT3? Obviously older and not as nice inside, but likely to be depreciation proof and possibly more rewarding to drive, depending on what you like. Definitely more raw than a 997 :)

[funtime]

Thanks for the reply Terry. I have looked at the 996's - I was wondering whether to go and see this one http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-gt3-996/porsche-911-996-mk1-gt3-30k-miles-with-fantastic-spec-and-fsh/1156210 but it's been for sale for ages now so wonder if there's something wrong with it or if it's just too expensive?

Anyway, I'm not ruling them out, but if I'm honest I just much prefer the 997's to the 996's - exterior and interior is much nicer I think - especially the carbon buckets on the CS packs. I also don't think that prices on 997's will fall much more if I get an early one.

Plus I read the EVO group test of all the GT3's recently and it said that they were such a step up from the 996's. That's in standard form though so not to say with a few choice modifications the 996's couldn't be as good...

Love yours though, remember seeing it going up for sale!

Quick question - what's the traction control like in the GT3's? is it just on or off or does it have a track or race setting like the CSL? I'm guessing it's less intrusive than the CSL's but haven't driven one yet!

Cheers,
James

[portlandgrey]

PM Dazz, he has/had his 997 GT3 for sale.

I'd have thought its been well looked after & sorted.

[Mike R]

Car choice is very subjective. I personally found the 997 GT3 RS (v.1) to be notchy and quite easy to miss-shift at 9/10ths driving. Despite this, it IS more rewarding than the CSL, as when you get everything right, the sense of achievement makes you bond more with the car.

However, I have only ever driven one on track (but I didn't want to hand it back to my mate afterwards), so not sure how they are at more normal speeds.

What I'm trying to say is that you need to get yourself behind the wheel and see if it is for you, especially as you're saying that you already have a preference for the CSL's SMG.

As an aside, white ones are fastest ;).

[s.mac]

Porsche if you have the choice, you can always go back to CSL but worth trying another lump if you have the chance :)

[funtime]

PM Dazz, he has/had his 997 GT3 for sale.

I'd have thought its been well looked after & sorted.

Yeah and it's been for sale for ages - not sure why it hasn't gone although I would hazard a guess that the wrapped bonnet has put a lot of people off. Anyway, I'm sure it's immaculate, but I wouldn't consider one that didn't have the carbon buckets and cage really...

Car choice is very subjective. I personally found the 997 GT3 RS (v.1) to be notchy and quite easy to miss-shift at 9/10ths driving. Despite this, it IS more rewarding than the CSL, as when you get everything right, the sense of achievement makes you bond more with the car.

However, I have only ever driven one on track (but I didn't want to hand it back to my mate afterwards), so not sure how they are at more normal speeds.

What I'm trying to say is that you need to get yourself behind the wheel and see if it is for you, especially as you're saying that you already have a preference for the CSL's SMG.

As an aside, white ones are fastest ;).

Sounds like wise words - but like you say it's those kind of shifts when pushing it that I'm worried about but I'm sure It's just down to practice!

And it would be White or Grey that I'd go for anyway :)

Porsche if you have the choice, you can always go back to CSL but worth trying another lump if you have the chance :)

To be honest, this is the main thing for me, with so many options open with the budget I have, it seems silly to go for another CSL despite how much I loved owning mine!

Decisions decisions!

[terryb]

Thanks for the reply Terry. I have looked at the 996's - I was wondering whether to go and see this one http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-gt3-996/porsche-911-996-mk1-gt3-30k-miles-with-fantastic-spec-and-fsh/1156210 but it's been for sale for ages now so wonder if there's something wrong with it or if it's just too expensive?

Anyway, I'm not ruling them out, but if I'm honest I just much prefer the 997's to the 996's - exterior and interior is much nicer I think - especially the carbon buckets on the CS packs. I also don't think that prices on 997's will fall much more if I get an early one.

Plus I read the EVO group test of all the GT3's recently and it said that they were such a step up from the 996's. That's in standard form though so not to say with a few choice modifications the 996's couldn't be as good...

Love yours though, remember seeing it going up for sale!

Quick question - what's the traction control like in the GT3's? is it just on or off or does it have a track or race setting like the CSL? I'm guessing it's less intrusive than the CSL's but haven't driven one yet!

Cheers,
James

That looks like a very nice and well specced GT3. Mine now has 80k miles and is going as well and as strong as when I got it 4 years ago and almost 30k miles ago. I'd have a look at that one and take it for a drive, see what you think :). These cars are better driven quickly than slowly :)

[DazBlackCSL]

Yup my 997 GT3 still for sale, bonnet and roof carbon wrap comes off in 15 mins :hahaha: and detailed and waxed back to std for those who prefer it original, so not really a biggie.

Think as most buy to use on track and track day season has been slower to start due to weather not had that many calls, had a few silly 45k bids, someone offering an R8 in chop the trade is around 48 (offered from two specialists) as its fully up and together with recent major service so that's not needed for another 20k, new supersports all the extras inc passenger air bag de-activation (for Chloe to ride in her car seat in the front):hahaha:

Just clicked 40k full service history Porsche and specialists, 3 years ago I was thinking I would only have one with carbon buckets etc etc, but in reality if your using it as a daily the std spec comfort is the one to have, doesn't change the drive or lap times or experience with a cage or buckets :-D

Plus you don't look like a **** when your getting out of the car at work or the local shops !! :hahaha:

On iPad so can't post link ads expired and not renewing just yet ( don't really want to sell it to be honest ) so just pm me if your interested and im more than happy for you to take her out and have a looky, Alex and Stu have driven it in the last few weeks so can vouch for her :smt055

[DazBlackCSL]

Forgot to answer your original question !

Loved my CSL had her for the longest I've ever owned a car just over 4 years, purchased with 30k on and sold her with just over 90k, loads of miles on track, ring and road, it was my actual daily, probably better in std form for those duties than with all the toys I had on her by the time I sold it.

Had to scratch the 997 GT3 itch though, and sitting in a 996 v 997 as a daily it's far nicer don't doubt the 996 enthusiasts say is supposed to be better drive, either one requires effort and to get under the skin a lot more than a CSL.

Once you spend a bit of time with one it is far more rewarding to drive quicker as it does need respect and understanding to drive harder, once you do hook it up it's immense, and the manual box is awesome, learn to H&T and it's a knife through butter pin sharp, steering is go kart like responsive and with sport on, dampers switched to hard and traction off its a weapon, and the noise :smt055

Anyway regardless of whether your looking at mine or not, have a drive I would tick the box, pretty much depreciation free ish, paid 55k a year ago so up for 49,999 at the mo.

Hope that helps :beer:

[funtime]

That looks like a very nice and well specced GT3. Mine now has 80k miles and is going as well and as strong as when I got it 4 years ago and almost 30k miles ago. I'd have a look at that one and take it for a drive, see what you think :). These cars are better driven quickly than slowly :)

Thanks Terry, I might just do that... although if I'm honest I'd be keener if it was a 996.2 but there we go.

Yup my 997 GT3 still for sale, bonnet and roof carbon wrap comes off in 15 mins :hahaha: and detailed and waxed back to std for those who prefer it original, so not really a biggie.

Think as most buy to use on track and track day season has been slower to start due to weather not had that many calls, had a few silly 45k bids, someone offering an R8 in chop the trade is around 48 (offered from two specialists) as its fully up and together with recent major service so that's not needed for another 20k, new supersports all the extras inc passenger air bag de-activation (for Chloe to ride in her car seat in the front):hahaha:

Just clicked 40k full service history Porsche and specialists, 3 years ago I was thinking I would only have one with carbon buckets etc etc, but in reality if your using it as a daily the std spec comfort is the one to have, doesn't change the drive or lap times or experience with a cage or buckets :-D

Plus you don't look like a **** when your getting out of the car at work or the local shops !! :hahaha:

On iPad so can't post link ads expired and not renewing just yet ( don't really want to sell it to be honest ) so just pm me if your interested and im more than happy for you to take her out and have a looky, Alex and Stu have driven it in the last few weeks so can vouch for her :smt055

Thanks Darren, yours does look lovely but it's only a weekend toy for me and going to be (hopefully) using it on track a bit so I'm really after a clubsport spec... shame as yours looks like it wants for nothing! Having said that though, my girlfriend much prefers the comfort model and yours is one of the cheapest on the market due to the miles so it is still tempting!!

Forgot to answer your original question !

Loved my CSL had her for the longest I've ever owned a car just over 4 years, purchased with 30k on and sold her with just over 90k, loads of miles on track, ring and road, it was my actual daily, probably better in std form for those duties than with all the toys I had on her by the time I sold it.

Had to scratch the 997 GT3 itch though, and sitting in a 996 v 997 as a daily it's far nicer don't doubt the 996 enthusiasts say is supposed to be better drive, either one requires effort and to get under the skin a lot more than a CSL.

Once you spend a bit of time with one it is far more rewarding to drive quicker as it does need respect and understanding to drive harder, once you do hook it up it's immense, and the manual box is awesome, learn to H&T and it's a knife through butter pin sharp, steering is go kart like responsive and with sport on, dampers switched to hard and traction off its a weapon, and the noise :smt055

Anyway regardless of whether your looking at mine or not, have a drive I would tick the box, pretty much depreciation free ish, paid 55k a year ago so up for 49,999 at the mo.

Hope that helps :beer:


haha yeah thanks for answering the question :beer: like you I loved my CSL and didn't get it on track anywhere near as much as I would have liked and drove it in m-track mode everywhere but never really drove it with the traction off. Part of my thinks I should just get a CSL and learn to drive that to the limit first with the traction off before I step it up a few notches with a GT3 and introduce heel & toe etc....

Hmmm best get driving a few then!! I am impatient though, so it won't be long - if Marks CSL was SG i'd buy it tomorrow but I think that's partly why it's still for sale :(

[Mark CSL]

Hmmm best get driving a few then!! I am impatient though, so it won't be long - if Marks CSL was SG i'd buy it tomorrow but I think that's partly why it's still for sale :(


My car has had 4 offers of full asking price from an hour after it went up for sale
The car is at Bmw waiting on a part being fixed so until i get her back i cant sell it :thumbs:

SB is the faster car :whistle: even when selling :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:


Buy the GT3 and lust after the CSL I am having second thoughts about my car and if the e90 m3 dtc is not up to the job it will be staying for another 6 years

[funtime]

My car has had 4 offers of full asking price from an hour after it went up for sale
The car is at Bmw waiting on a part being fixed so until i get her back i cant sell it :thumbs:

SB is the faster car :whistle: even when selling :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:


Buy the GT3 and lust after the CSL I am having second thoughts about my car and if the e90 m3 dtc is not up to the job it will be staying for another 6 years

I was suprised it hadn't gone so that explains it. Although there does seem to be more demand for SG I think.

So does this mean its sold then Mark? Have you not taken a deposit from someone yet? What are BMW fixing at the moment? - there can't be much left on the car to replace!!

[Pip1968]

Quick question - what's the traction control like in the GT3's? is it just on or off or does it have a track or race setting like the CSL? I'm guessing it's less intrusive than the CSL's but haven't driven one yet!


Funtime, just to answer this the 996 has no nannying aids like traction control whilst the 997 Mk II has PSM (Porsche Stability Management) and TC which can be switched off. The Mk I only has TC.

996 GT3 is a completely different drive to a CSL and feels a little more like a wild animal. No idea on the 997 GT3 but still hanker after a 997 GT3 RS. Definately test drive one.

Pip

[DazBlackCSL]

Mines a Mk1 997 and has PASM and TC it's a very late 57 08 spec / model not sure if that's why

[funtime]

Well that does it for me then... Won't even consider a 996 if they don't have any traction at all! Call me a big girl but when it's raining or I'm on a track like the Ring I want to be able to enjoy the car and not tiptoe round...

With the CSL in M-track it would still intervene at points round the ring, but I know I wouldn't be able to save it every time when pushing hard...

Darren - what's the TC like on yours compared to the CSL in M-track? Does it allow slightly more slip or is it more intrusive?

Thanks,
James

[DazBlackCSL]

It's spot on bud, just enough to feel the car but you know it's there just in case, mind you once they go they go, engine in the back nothing up front it's like pendulum :hahaha:

Seriously though well worth getting some tuition as the more aggressive you are with them the more grip they have, dab of brake, or pull of speed to get the nose to dive, position it and hard back on the loud peddle when you would mentally be telling yourself not too, did a long day a silverstone with an ex Porsche racer and rallycross guy, and he transformed the way I drove it, I was a pussy in the am and was running wide on exit each corner as was not being aggressive enough, once I got the confidence to push hard and take it by the scruff the mechanical grip is mental and pulls you in a tigher line and just corners like its on rails.

That the age old thing with a 911 don't be gentle and never back of mid corner or be half hearted and it comes to you, felt like a different car driving home, and so glad I did it before my ring trip in her in Oct.

Makes me smile thinking about it :-D

Well that does it for me then... Won't even consider a 996 if they don't have any traction at all! Call me a big girl but when it's raining or I'm on a track like the Ring I want to be able to enjoy the car and not tiptoe round...

With the CSL in M-track it would still intervene at points round the ring, but I know I wouldn't be able to save it every time when pushing hard...

Darren - what's the TC like on yours compared to the CSL in M-track? Does it allow slightly more slip or is it more intrusive?

Thanks,
James

[funtime]

It's spot on bud, just enough to feel the car but you know it's there just in case, mind you once they go they go, engine in the back nothing up front it's like pendulum :hahaha:

Seriously though well worth getting some tuition as the more aggressive you are with them the more grip they have, dab of brake, or pull of speed to get the nose to dive, position it and hard back on the loud peddle when you would mentally be telling yourself not too, did a long day a silverstone with an ex Porsche racer and rallycross guy, and he transformed the way I drove it, I was a pussy in the am and was running wide on exit each corner as was not being aggressive enough, once I got the confidence to push hard and take it by the scruff the mechanical grip is mental and pulls you in a tigher line and just corners like its on rails.

That the age old thing with a 911 don't be gentle and never back of mid corner or be half hearted and it comes to you, felt like a different car driving home, and so glad I did it before my ring trip in her in Oct.

Makes me smile thinking about it :-D

Sounds amazing, and I was planning on doing some driver training! I always have a lesson when i do a track day but need to start doing more of them!

I have heard of the pendulum like effect when you loose it though! have you lost your at all?

[DazBlackCSL]

Sounds amazing, and I was planning on doing some driver training! I always have a lesson when i do a track day but need to start doing more of them!

I have heard of the pendulum like effect when you loose it though! have you lost your at all?


Luckily not yet, had a couple of little moves left and right but again keep the foot in and it will correct, all about confidence I suppose as your first reaction is to ease of when it first goes, that's when it all goes wrong :hahaha:

[niall1]

Well that does it for me then... Won't even consider a 996 if they don't have any traction at all!

For me that was the attraction. Don't like the TC/M button/Sport button, although as my daily driver I admit I use the M button as part of my daily routine (turn car on, light on, press M button). It allows a bit of slip as otherwise I find the Diff and TC fight each other at every gravel strewn junction..
(Irish roads).

[terryb]

Well that does it for me then... Won't even consider a 996 if they don't have any traction at all! Call me a big girl but when it's raining or I'm on a track like the Ring I want to be able to enjoy the car and not tiptoe round...

With the CSL in M-track it would still intervene at points round the ring, but I know I wouldn't be able to save it every time when pushing hard...

Darren - what's the TC like on yours compared to the CSL in M-track? Does it allow slightly more slip or is it more intrusive?

Thanks,
James


I think I'm right in saying that only the 996.1 has no TC but the 996.2 does. In terms of safety and getting the most out of the car I think the set up is all important. I have more confidence in my 996.1 than any other car I've ever driven on track, which is testament to the setup and the quality of components such as suspension and brakes, etc

[Pip1968]

I have a 996 Mk II and I cannot see any TC controls on it on or off. I think that is why so many love the GT3 RS ie it has no nannying aids and a lot of people were amazed it was allowed as a road going car (same for GT3).

I have lost it a couple of times. Once on the straight in front of the pits at Nurburgring GP. I came off the Nordschleife and was trying to get maximum speed and did not know the GP track or that the right hand hairpin was blind until you see it (too late). Slammed the anchors on > overrun > gravel pit. Another time at the top end, the last major left turn before the straight and joining the Nordschleife again. Was going to fast to make the left turn and spun in the run off. In short I think the underlying factor was lack of track knowledge.

I know the GP track quite well now :whistle:. Drive it like its your last is my motto. I know plenty of people/colleagues now who are all dead and not as old as me. You are not long for this life.

TC or PASM or not you still see plenty of Porsche with them being written off but each to their own.

Pip :119:

FYI a few short clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L-4lXRD1DA - GT3 RS - 997

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLeEl0nV8Uc - vanilla Porsche, first car being a CSL 'looky likey' (it is where all the spares have gone :hahaha:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzIXLS06utY - not sure what aids this has as it is on the VLN

[niall1]

I think I'm right in saying that only the 996.1 has no TC but the 996.2 does.

As Pip said no nannying aids on either 996.1 or .2, the only driver aid on the 996.2 is ABS.

[The JC]

I have a fair amount of seat time in 6.2 and 7.1/7.2 narrow body GT3s. In fact, prior to my accepting an expat transfer to Aberdeen, my plan was to replace my e92 M3 with a 7.1 GT3. The steering is surgically precise and that 911 driving position is exceptional. Not too mention that you can't stick a Sharkwerks muffler bypass on it and the sounds is near cup car. The 7.2 cars are much better sorted for road/track driving and if you are considering a 7.1, do look into modifying the suspension.

My plan is still to purchase a GT3 (probably 7.2 or 7.2 RS if I can swing it) upon my return to the US in the next five years. With the 991 GT3 being released in manual only, the 997 is truly a dying bread and could possibly be the pinnacle of the model.