Alcon Conversion Front Wheel bell. Where from??

[Johnnywb]

Took my car into George at Technosport for a quick look at the brakes before Spa / the Ring this weekend. (Brakes needed bleeding)

Turns out it might not be such a quick look....

George's thought is that the bell has been 'machined' to allow a different size pad to be fitted, but rather than use a lathe, someone's tried using a file...

Now i've not done any work to the brakes other than a couple of fluid changes in my ownership (yes, yes, i clearly don't drive far enough or fast enough). Although clearly the bells have got pretty warm?

But more importantly, the bells both need replacing. Were these replaced as part of the Alcon conversion (it was on the car when i bought it). Does anyone know where i could get hold of some tout suite...?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/johnnywb/WP_20130326_007.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/johnnywb/WP_20130326_006.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/johnnywb/WP_20130326_005.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/johnnywb/WP_20130326_004.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/johnnywb/WP_20130326_003.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/johnnywb/WP_20130326_002.jpg

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote- '' .....but rather than use a lathe, someone's tried using a file...


Are you sure it was a file ?

Looks more like Stevie Wonder has
been playing with an angle grinder .

The Armco at Spa in no more forgiving
than anywhere else, so I would get
it properly sorted before seeing if
''Stevie's'' handy work is up to task.

Alcon maybe or borrow some ?

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[shimmy]

Ouch, silly billy whomever it was.

[shane@mbtech]

Your calipers are on the the wrong side too, you will have been experiencing brake issues, overheating?

Give alcon a call, and tell them which kit you have, they may have some lying about.

[Johnnywb]

Your calipers are on the the wrong side too, you will have been experiencing brake issues, overheating?

Give alcon a call, and tell them which kit you have, they may have some lying about.

My plan is to call Alcon in the morning. The work was done by Thorney originally (at least the brakes were supplied by them as there's a receipt for it, it's in the car so will need to check whether it included fitting).

How the F.ck could someone install the calipers on the wrong side?! Can't say i've noticed a big problem, but then again...

[shane@mbtech]

My plan is to call Alcon in the morning. The work was done by Thorney originally (at least the brakes were supplied by them as there's a receipt for it, it's in the car so will need to check whether it included fitting).

How the F.ck could someone install the calipers on the wrong side?! Can't say i've noticed a big problem, but then again...

The leading piston on the direction of disc travel, should be the smaller piston. So it grabs the brakes gradually. They way yours are installed means the biggest piston is braking first, so is rendering the smaller ones a little redundant. :thumbs:

[shane@mbtech]

They have been made like that.

If you swapped sides and turned them the correct way, your bleed nipples would then be at the bottom. And bleeding from the bottom of the caliper would be difficult;).So you will need to take bleed nipples out, and take connecting pipe off, then swap them top to bottom.

My guess is when they were painted yellow, and the decals applied, the nipples and connecting pipes were installed incorrectly.

[AlexGTT]

That is diabolical workmanship! Can't believe anyone would do that in a professional workshop..................but then again I shouldn't be shocked. The disc's look ready to part from the hubs on the first big brake at the end of Kemel! Glad you didn't get there with them in that state!:bigcry:

[NZ_M3]

My guess is when they were painted yellow, and the decals applied, the nipples and connecting pipes were installed incorrectly.

Lawsy's correct - your calipers are upside down and as stated the bleed nipple and the connecting pipes were installed incorrectly.

That wear mark looks to me like one of the brake pads have failed and come away from the holding slot within the caliper and made contact with the disc and chewed through it.

You can buy the bells independently from Alcon - if you search I am sure someone has posted a part number up before, otherwise I can look for it later on.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n319/M3_Power/Alcon%20Brakes/ResizeofP1020327.jpg

I think this is the correct bell part number (found it in my photo files)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n319/M3_Power/Alcon%20Brakes/ResizeofDSC00859_zps5792b6c7.jpg

[M5 Powered]

Hi Johnny,

That is pretty shocking. Those don't seem to be original Bells. The correct ones are as NZ shows (they have a black heat coating on them).

Call Alcon in the morning. Customer service was excellent!

[chicken]

what ever happened to good workmanship or at least pride? :banghead:

[leaded]

Give Dave a call at Ears motorsport. 01625 433773

dave@ears.co.uk

They do Alcon stuff and are very helpful.

[shane@mbtech]

To me it looks like wheel acid/chemical has been used to clean the wheels and and the bell has reacted/oxidised and thats why they have gone this way?

That and the bolts holding the disc to the bell have been overtightened.

[Johnnywb]

Thanks all.

I've spoken to Alcon this morning who are going to have a look into sourcing something.

The guy i spoke to thought that the items were custom made for the CSL, in which case it might be a hassle to get something.

Will let you know how it pans out.

[Johnnywb]

Ok, latest update;

Alcon never called back.

Dave at Ears on the other hand, could not have been more helpful.

It would seem that my car isn't the first CSL he's seen with this problem and he has been working on a fix. He did explain the issue to me, but i'm hard of thinking.

From memory, i think (and i'm sure someone will be able to confirm), the alloy used for the front bell housings basically isn't strong enough and degrades over time. Dave has been working with an engineer to come up with a better solution.

He's sent down a couple of bell housings, bobbins and other bits.

Essentially i've opted to turn the fronts into a full floating set up in line with the race set up.

I'll let you know how we get on.

I'll also see if i can get Dave to post here exactly what's going on as he's got a much better idea than i!

[KPNUTZ]

Need to check my calipers as I'm sure my bleed nipple is pointing upwards!

As a side note, can only speak highly of Dave at Ears, haven't dealt with him since I had my Evos, top bloke.

[Johnnywb]

Need to check my calipers as I'm sure my bleed nipple is pointing upwards!

As a side note, can only speak highly of Dave at Ears, haven't dealt with him since I had my Evos, top bloke.

The bleed nipple should be pointing up to let the air out.

Basically some muppet put my calipers together the wrong way once they were painted... THe smaller of the three (6) pistons should be at the bottom, you can see on mine, it's at the top...

Nervous wait for parts delivery today....

[shane@mbtech]

The bleed nipple should be pointing up to let the air out.

Basically some muppet put my calipers together the wrong way once they were painted... THe smaller of the three (6) pistons should be at the bottom, you can see on mine, it's at the top...

Nervous wait for parts delivery today....

An MLR lad was having issues with alcons on his evo, he was wearing pads at crazy angles, and getting pedal issues. I showed him his calipers were on upside down, he changed them and had zero issues after. :supz:

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote- THe smaller of the three (6) pistons should be at the bottom, you can see on mine, it's at the top...


If used as Trailing [e46] but if they had
been installed on something as Leading then
they would be the correct configuration.

BG Developments will make you a pair
of Proper Brake Belles for around 150/200.

www.BGdevelopments.co.uk

As you already have the original pattern then
it would be simple to do a later stage, could
even investigate converting to using PF discs
and have the new Belles made with a PF
'PCD' bolt mount, not Alcon.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Johnnywb]

Thanks.

This is very much a "there's no reason this shouldn't work" attempt to get me on the road, rather than a 100% this is a solution.

If it works then great and i'll liaise with Dave to help ensure the parts are available for whoever else might need them.

[shane@mbtech]

Hi,

Quote- THe smaller of the three (6) pistons should be at the bottom, you can see on mine, it's at the top...


If used as Trailing [e46] but if they had
been installed on something as Leading then
they would be the correct configuration.

BG Developments will make you a pair
of Proper Brake Belles for around 150/200.

www.BGdevelopments.co.uk

As you already have the original pattern then
it would be simple to do a later stage, could
even investigate converting to using PF discs
and have the new Belles made with a PF
'PCD' bolt mount, not Alcon.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

But it is an e46 m3, so they are installed incorrectly. :smokin:

It is e46 m3 Csl we are talking about? :-D

[alexk]

Thorney csl cup brake kits, brilliant

[Johnnywb]

Thorney csl cup brake kits, brilliant

Can't wait to get the car back and have a little look through the invoices to see who installed them...

[Mike R]

Can't wait to get the car back and have a little look through the invoices to see who installed them...

To be fair, I'd be pointing the finger at the people who refurbished the calipers ;).

[shane@mbtech]

To be fair, I'd be pointing the finger at the people who refurbished the calipers ;).

The calipers were supplied by Thorney in either black or yellow as new.

[northernjim]

/\ How many nails does he need in his coffin???





Fingers crossed everything arrives in time for you johnny

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote- ''But it is an e46 m3, so they are installed incorrectly.''

Oh yes, but the thread seem to suggest that they
were from Another source and not on
this Car originally ?

So Primate was thinking outside the
box, as it seems odd that you put something
back togther in a different configuration
than when you took it apart.

More so when it involves Brakes !!

But given they emerged from the land
of the 400 BHP plus CSL's then I guess
anything is possible.

Out of interest is there a ''Recall'' on these
Alcon Disc Belles then ? or are they
not of Alcon Origin ? and the original
supplier no longer does CSL go faster
bits ?

Box sellers, just love em.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Johnnywb]

Basically, the CSL cup brakes were developed by Thorney Motorsport and Alcon for the CSL cup racing series as i undersand it.

They were brand new disks, calipers, bell houses, bobbins etc.

The calipers i guess were supplied by Alcon to Thorney or someone else who sprayed them yellow (or black) and put the CSL cup stickers on them.

When someone put my calipers back together, they put them together back to front, or upside down.

I don't believe there's a recall, i'm not even sure who would issue a recall? Alcon? Thorney?

As it stands at the moment, as of half an hour ago, bobbins had turned up, but no bell houses.

Barring a miracle, looks like i'm out, but appreciate all Dave has done and George at Technosport, looks like a courier's let us down.

If anyone (seriously) is interested in Spa on Sunday, Ring GP circuit on Tuesday and full VLN on Weds, give me a shout. Even got a couple of Eurotunnel bookings (Saturday AM outbound and Thursday return).

Fook it, even got a hotel room at Spa Saturday night and potentially a room at the Pistenklause (you know what i mean) on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. (subject of course to circuit days and DN agreeing that i can swap the names over)

[Johnnywb]

Still out for delivery on UPS apparently....

[northernjim]

fingers crossed for you mate

[shimmy]

come over mine this weekend and well put my APs on her, shes only sitting in the garage (with no steering wheel) so cant be used!

Basically, the CSL cup brakes were developed by Thorney Motorsport and Alcon for the CSL cup racing series as i undersand it.

They were brand new disks, calipers, bell houses, bobbins etc.

The calipers i guess were supplied by Alcon to Thorney or someone else who sprayed them yellow (or black) and put the CSL cup stickers on them.

When someone put my calipers back together, they put them together back to front, or upside down.

I don't believe there's a recall, i'm not even sure who would issue a recall? Alcon? Thorney?

As it stands at the moment, as of half an hour ago, bobbins had turned up, but no bell houses.

Barring a miracle, looks like i'm out, but appreciate all Dave has done and George at Technosport, looks like a courier's let us down.

If anyone (seriously) is interested in Spa on Sunday, Ring GP circuit on Tuesday and full VLN on Weds, give me a shout. Even got a couple of Eurotunnel bookings (Saturday AM outbound and Thursday return).

Fook it, even got a hotel room at Spa Saturday night and potentially a room at the Pistenklause (you know what i mean) on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. (subject of course to circuit days and DN agreeing that i can swap the names over)

[_Nathan_]

I was gonna suggest the same but I need new disks

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Given all the arrangements and no
doubt costs, can anybody help
with Front Alcon Disc belles ?

Failing which, between Shimmy,
and Nathan's kind offers, I am
also willing to assist with Calipers,
Discs whatever, I am sure you
would be able to sort out front
Brakes by close Friday [tomorrow] and
be set to go for Saturday ?

If I can help in anyway I will.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Johnnywb]

Thanks all.

I'll speak to the guys in the morning and find out whether anything turned up and find out what state the car's in and go from there.

Still haven't given up hope!

The bell housings were shipped with UPS, who normally i find pretty reliable, so it's a bit odd, but hey ho.

[Steve B]

These are the floating Alcons on my mates Astra T9.... He also spoke to Alcon and they admitted it was their fault but won't do anything about it....


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Steve%40RSx/6D7B017B-D19A-47C5-ABFF-67E965CBDB7D-165-000000043B45A409_zps923b5426.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Steve%40RSx/DE1814B9-A6B5-4410-A444-D85274D7FFE5-165-000000043796864F_zpsc168d5d1.jpg

[CraigMillwardCroft]

You don't get those problems with AP's quality stuff and very good aftercare :-D

[KPNUTZ]

These are the floating Alcons on my mates Astra T9.... He also spoke to Alcon and they admitted it was their fault but won't do anything about it....


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Steve%40RSx/6D7B017B-D19A-47C5-ABFF-67E965CBDB7D-165-000000043B45A409_zps923b5426.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Steve%40RSx/DE1814B9-A6B5-4410-A444-D85274D7FFE5-165-000000043796864F_zpsc168d5d1.jpg

I'm confused, what is actually happening? It looks as though the pad is eating away at the bell?

[Steve B]

Alcon said to my friend that they had used a poor grade of alloy.


Steve

[shimmy]

Alcon said to my friend that they had used a poor grade of alloy.


Steve

IMHO they are not fit for purpose and I would be camped out on their doorstep demanding my money back (Thorney if he fitted them)

Just plain dangerous

[Steve B]

Too right.....


Wouldn't happen in USA...

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote- ''Wouldn't happen in USA...

Not so sure about that as Texas and
the supplier have a lot in Common.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Johnnywb]

Hi,

Quote- ''Wouldn't happen in USA...

Not so sure about that as Texas and
the supplier have a lot in Common.

Regards,

The Gorilla.


:hahaha:

[Johnnywb]

Despite UPS best efforts, we have all the parts. (Huge thanks to George at Technosport who went to get them from UPS last night).

They're working on fitting them now, may not be as straightforward as hoped.

Can't thanks George and the guys at Technosport and Dave at Ears enough.

Alcon still haven't called me back by the way...

[karbonkid]

Interestingly I see the picture below on Thorney's website, showing smaller piston at the top:

Whos car is this? Johnnywb?
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8959/cslcupalconsupsidedown.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/109/cslcupalconsupsidedown.jpg/)

Comparison of another set with larger piston at top.
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9590/cslcupalcon.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/507/cslcupalcon.jpg/)

[northernjim]

the fact that the bells are black suggests that they are not even hard anodised, which won't make much difference if they have been carved out of cheese I admit, just smacks of cost cutting

[Johnnywb]

Interestingly I see the picture below on Thorney's website, showing smaller piston at the top:

Whos car is this? Johnnywb?


Hard to say as not much to go on, but my car does have Mcguard locking nuts on the front!

Unless they cocked up the install somewhere else too.

So, it appears that Cecil will not ride this weekend. All the parts arrived, but there is a difference in the bolt holes on the bobbin and on the disc. On the disc they are 8mm and on the bobbin 6mm. (or something along those lines) and there isn't time to sort.

I'll speak to Dave next week and discuss how to move forwards. As this was a last ditch attempt to fix quickly, we may rethink what we do. I've offered him my car to work with to get a fix sorted.

Will keep you all posted as to what happens as i guess there are going to be other people with this problem.

[northernjim]

on the bright side its snowing at the ring and spa!


a credit note might not be such a bad thing:wink:

[Johnnywb]

on the bright side its snowing at the ring and spa!


a credit note might not be such a bad thing:wink:

I just checked the webcam and the weather! -3 is Spa and snow on the ground at the Ring.

Doesn't look like the best conditions full stop. Spoke to Darren but he capped the numbers when it became apparent they wouldn't be able to use the Ring on the Weds PM (hence the use of the GP circuit instead).

Can't get a refund on the tunnel or hotels, so going to go with the boys anyway in the diesel smoker. Might take it for a lap, but probably not. I have at least saved the trackday insurance.

Ah well. We tried as much as we could!

[KPNUTZ]

Interestingly I see the picture below on Thorney's website, showing smaller piston at the top:

Whos car is this? Johnnywb?
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8959/cslcupalconsupsidedown.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/109/cslcupalconsupsidedown.jpg/)

Comparison of another set with larger piston at top.
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9590/cslcupalcon.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/507/cslcupalcon.jpg/)

The disks are on back to front as well, the curved vanes should run in the direction of the wheel rotation.

[Johnnywb]

The disks are on back to front as well, the curved vanes should run in the direction of the wheel rotation.

That would also tally with my car...

Maybe this is why i've been so slow round the Ring... :wink:

[KPNUTZ]

Alcon said to my friend that they had used a poor grade of alloy.


Steve

Based on that admission I'd have pushed for money back or new disks...
Shocking!!

[alexk]

Ha :notworthy:

Thorne drives in reverse, that's why the caliper is up-side-down !


WTF :wanker:

[shane@mbtech]

The disks are on back to front as well, the curved vanes should run in the direction of the wheel rotation.

Discs are right way

[KPNUTZ]

Discs are right way

Just been to check mine and they're the same.. thank god.

[Levente]

wont buy alcon thats for sure. :finga:

[shimmy]

Hi,

Quote- ''Wouldn't happen in USA...

Not so sure about that as Texas and
the supplier have a lot in Common.

Regards,

The Gorilla.


for someone so technically minded you have GOTTA learn how to use the QUOTE button! :-D

[chicken]

A month or 2 ago, someone was selling a set of cslcup alcons on 330mm discs which were off his csl, might be reg member, but he didn't know much about them. 330mm discs seems small?

Also I think those pics from tms are from his csl at the time, probably before it had 400 bhp (billion horse powers) :hahaha:

[M5 Powered]

Hi Johnny,

Have dug out the contact details from the guy I dealt with at Alcon at the time I bought mine.

Assuming he is still there, I will try and speak to him next week to find out what the situation is re: the Bells. Must say two other people I know (one with a dedicated M3 track car and the other with a CS) have not had issues and nor have I. Indeed the performance kit is common to other makes like the Lancer so it seems strange there appears to be only these fatigue instances highlighted - certainly on the web.

Of course this doesn't excuse the service! My experience was pretty much the exact opposite to yours when looking into the brakes for mine - even to the point of a tour round their facility in Tamworth and helpful 'we suggest RS29's' - backed up by members here and Thorney where I got the pads from.

Anyway, keep you posted.

Kindest,

Jonathan

[M5 Powered]

[QUOTE]330mm discs which were off his csl/QUOTE]

Yep they are the wrong size. Fronts are 365mm. Can't have even been the rears as these are 355mm.

Best,

J

[Johnnywb]

Hi Johnny,

Have dug out the contact details from the guy I dealt with at Alcon at the time I bought mine.

Assuming he is still there, I will try and speak to him next week to find out what the situation is re: the Bells. Must say two other people I know (one with a dedicated M3 track car and the other with a CS) have not had issues and nor have I. Indeed the performance kit is common to other makes like the Lancer so it seems strange there appears to be only these fatigue instances highlighted - certainly on the web.

Of course this doesn't excuse the service! My experience was pretty much the exact opposite to yours when looking into the brakes for mine - even to the point of a tour round their facility in Tamworth and helpful 'we suggest RS29's' - backed up by members here and Thorney where I got the pads from.

Anyway, keep you posted.

Kindest,

Jonathan

Thanks Jonathan,

Will give them another call next week. It does seem that there's an issue with a low quality alloy having been used, but it'll be interesting to see if anyone else has issues.

[M5 Powered]

Hi Johnny,

No probs.

It could be a batch issue (easy enough to identify as each bell has a unique serial) but either-way Alcon need to communicate and resolve this quickly, especially on a £5K (with vat) brake kit!

Am still surprised it hasn't come to light sooner though. It was after all Thorney's preferred brake solution for the CSLCup! http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/products/product_info.php?cPath=1329_2064_2073&products_id=4596

[s1csl]

I had a problem with a rear set of APs, spoke to someone at AP on the Monday he told me to send them in so did this on the Tuesday and received new ones on the Thursday, now that's what a call a service, sorry I know this does not help you